Anyone else feel like newer Zs haven't been very high quality?

Discussion in 'Units & Items' started by Hubert Ozwell, Nov 25, 2016.

  1. Hubert Ozwell

    Hubert Ozwell Member

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    Towards the beginning there were a few filler Zs that just existed to pollute the drop pool. Some were situationally useful but more often than not were glanced over like Invincible, 54B2, Puprope, Nakupi, Amazora. Some were straight up useless like Zavison. Some from that list are recodes of B or A class units so them being outclassed makes sense. The others within the Z pool had a very clear role. Some used the new elements: photon and gravity, others had all augments, others still had all impairs. That was mostly the starting Z pool or very early iterations of new ideas (in the case of augment, impair and new elements) so it was understandable that they made a few mistakes while testing the waters. Many of them, while not top tier picks, still had some applicable content where their design makes sense. Damage at that time was not overly restrictive and bringing in a non-absorbed element or weapon type didn't punish you outside of not dealing double damage.

    Fast forward to today and we have a few new Zs to the lineup. Senala, Lacuma, Mizell, Clara, Invincible and Shaplar. Invincible is actually a very solid unit considering it's basically free if you completed the PoF and PoFoF so it will be excluded.

    Senala: A lot of her skills are dedicated to fire damage, something that Lewto ^, Lewto, Bahamut and Koko already do a very good or better job at. She has no capsules either which is a huge downside for ice content. There also isn't exactly much, if any, new content that needs fire damage either. Her photon damage is average at best and she has an impair skill that doesn't make much sense given the current state of TB. If bosses can 1 shot you and must be impaired to survive it then the content becomes effectively impossible unless you have one of three units who can impair matk. You only get 1 extra turn per impair character assuming 3 impair casts are needed to survive said attack. If you don't need it to survive then any healer in the game will top you off easily. Given the recent trend of use the right weapon or element or do like 10% damage, having hybrid characters is a very odd/poor design choice. For a damage dealing unit she doesn't particularly excel at it and has next to 0 utility on top of it.

    Lacuma: Does decent gravity damage while in pincer and basically none in chain. No capsules , basically meaningless bow damage, and no unique skills, for the same reasons as above, make him a very uninteresting character. Since we don't have 6 better gravity units yet he'll get a space in your party if you're facing photon/lightning enemies but that's probably it.

    Mizell: A good unit imo only because of her equip version of disarm kinetic trap. While she has a very high damage multiplier there isn't really any content where non-elemental magic shines. You'd think the one time non-elemental magic should function is in content where non-COC weapon/element gets greatly penalized and yet it does like 20% damage instead of 10%.

    Clara: Another physical unit that doesn't have either insanely high base attack or atk + 10% self. In TB doing a single pincer on non-boss units will almost always kill it regardless of how weak or strong your units in the chain are. Unbuffed trinity characters and even average physical units can get the job done in single pincers. The second you move to double pincers those Z characters that don't have atk +10% self or phys atk x1.5 fall behind very, very fast. If it's anything like before her one utility skill, the dragon def debuff skill, will be useless since most new content enemies are immune to non-impair debuffs.

    Shaplar: Has very low dark damage and his recode adds in some sword damage that is more or less worthless. His attack stat isn't particularly high and he has no way of buffing it either. Recently dark damage has been less and less effective as gravity damage is much more prominent though it isn't as bad as photon basically deprecating lightning damage.

    Some of the recent S and SS recodes have been kind of bland too but those are much more understandable. They're stepping stones to the end game content and the fact that some of them are end game viable is very promising and nice of MW. I don't want Zs to be blatantly overpowered and make all other units irrelevant but I'd like it a lot if their designs actually made sense. Their artwork is very nice so great job on that for sure.
     
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  2. dre

    dre Member

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    I would say lacklustre and undesirable for myself, as now most grinding is for rerecoding so one can say " yeah... I've got that 100L unit you don't which gives me access to dem treasure chests" rather than " I've got this character. Most of the recent characters don't have that x factor that originals have, but rather the slot for a companion you find in luck 100 drops..... that is needed to disarm bullet hell;). In that sense then companions now exist for giving characters x factor to their existing skill set which is giga x buff x counter x & insert random weapon type here.

    I'd like to say the recent character additions have been refreshing, but a part from SS bahl/snaip and free luck 100.....
    everytime now I get a character, it's ok skillset is overshadowed by it's rerecoding possibilities.

    This isn't pokemon.....but at least in pokemon, I don't mind catching them all.
     
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  3. Person Man

    Person Man Well-Known Member

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    Note - The first recodes introduced a completely new level of power to the game. They also picked what was already the most power units in the game.

    Half of the new Z's are suppose to be average until you recode them. At that point they become top in the game at what they do. Senala is average at photon and below average in fire, but Senala^ is near above Edg'low and Myne (half of the photon units) and beats Beau'ne in a double. Lacuma^.... great damage AoE but Shin'en and Mutoh kill his design space. Mizell^ is queen of DPS having a magic tap and the highest (still?) DPS in the game. Invincible^ is just a better DPS Invincible who was amazing before taps. If Shap'lar was one of the first recodes, she would have a better image. She's not that great now though.

    Yes there are duds, but there's kind a few winners. The problem is they can't introduce fair content that uses all of them at the same time. There's also the fact we want some overlap to avoid things like the Mutoh set teams who has only had 2 new options of the set 6 introduced since her release (and those two are harder to obtain than the normal units).
     
  4. Xenocite

    Xenocite Active Member

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    Looking at Senala Λ's skillset and stats, there is one thing right now that she can do better than anyone else: Tank magic damage. High stats in MDef and a stackable skills that reduce all incoming magic damage and boost her magic defense. If there was a stage where huge non-elemental magic damage is directed at a single target every turn, Senala Λ could potentially be the only character that can take it and survive (think of Ballista from PDK, but way stronger and for magic damage).

    Clara Λ's is also the only Z-class that has counter and I think I remember it was mentioned during a Broadcast of Mist that they were thinking of making enemies that only take damage from counters, so Clara could be invaluable if those plans came into fruition.

    Those are just my thoughts on how some of the Z's could be valuable in the future. It's not really that they serve no purpose right now, it's just that there hasn't been a stage where they can really show off their stuff yet.
     
  5. TrueShadow

    TrueShadow Active Member

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    It's just a consequence of the game getting older and the cast of characters growing larger. Balancing all these characters are hard, and there are bound to be duds.

    There's also the slow, but surely there power creep. If Sha'plar^ was one of the first generation recode, she would be hailed as amazing. If BLO^ were to be released now, reactions would amount to "Meh, only good because free, Levi^ only good for MZ7" and so on. There's also the cancer that are the trinity and Gegonago^, who are so far ahead of everyone else in their categories it make everyone else pale by comparison.

    The biggest problems though, IMO:
    • Almost all boss battles descend into double pincer every turn.
    • Healing is too strong. Either you survive and get healed back to full health, or you get killed instantly.
    Those pretty much kill the viability of any nonstandard strategy outside a few bosses like Lamia or Storm Witch, where they're enforced instead.
     
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  6. limitbereaker

    limitbereaker Active Member

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    I don't know about junk characters but I do know they keep releasing alot of junk companion specially the o companion exclusive to certain character with near to useless effect. Also don't know why they making eidolons to companion and monsters.feel like TB getting lazy with new idea. Soon we see each character have their own version of rerecode/companion version/eidolons version.
     
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  7. LegendaryFrog

    LegendaryFrog Well-Known Member

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    There have always been high quality, valuable characters in the game even before recodes hit the stage. Gugba, the four Z mages, trinity, etc. At the same time there were always bad characters too like Zan and Burbaba. The big difference is that back then the strength of enemies was such that just about any team of 'appropriate' units was viable so people didn't care as much. The game has scaled so much in the last year that some characters just don't keep up. Sha'plar^, Lucia^, Ra'prow^ are good characters, but they aren't as good as Zerro^, Invincible^ and Bahl^. MW is doubling the PoT with recodes and to do that quickly some characters are going to get the short end (Eileen).
    I agree with this, but feel this is more of symptom than a cause. The scaling of characters is simply too inconsistent and that makes it very difficult to balance. Why is Bahl^, an S rank, better than most of the Z ranks? Why is Nakupi^ a Z when his skill set isn't even better than most S or SS units? When you throw a dart at a board to determine character stats and skills you're going to get a mess.
     
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  8. Quartzel

    Quartzel Active Member

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    They'd probably need to delay a whole content update to overhaul and balance everything from scratch, but I'm not sure most players would want to wait out that long for new stuff when TB's development time is already considered slow in the mobile world.
     
  9. Hubert Ozwell

    Hubert Ozwell Member

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    Senala ^ definitely has more photon damage than Edg'low, Myne and Beau'ne (well in Beau'ne's case her design is just straight up awful) but it's still back to her design not being that great I think. As discussed before impair magic is a very strange impair to have. In Edg'low and Myne's case while it's true they have lower photon damage, the way most bosses are designed now they have burst windows. Having slightly higher average damage doesn't mean a whole lot if you just instantly die at the burst stage. As for magic deflector, in a game like TB having 1 unit survive isn't effective at all (in fact you game over if that's the case). My apologies if I wasn't clear in my OP but I was mostly targeting the strange design decisions of the new Zs. Impairs that are super binary in nature: either mandatory or straight up worthless, physical characters that can't buff their attack, have like 30 more base attack to compensate and do not have super high multipliers like Mizell, slapping on physical damage to characters who basically have no business doing physical damage etc.

    As discussed by others though I agree a pretty large part of it is probably how the game itself is designed. With healing being so powerful it's like Trueshadow says. You either get topped off effortlessly or instantly die in 1 hit. For MW's part though I don't think they've been helping with the situation either. Making the wrong CoC type do almost 0 damage makes too many characters instantly a bad choice even if they have a ton of utility you'd want for the content. Making bosses super easy followed by a burst check is also pretty lame. If you don't meet the burst condition, which isn't interactive at all (just mash your tap characters), then you get instantly wiped regardless of how well you were doing.
     
  10. Neofalcon

    Neofalcon Active Member

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    If you only ever release characters that are better than the top 6 characters currently in the game, you end up with constant power creep.

    I, for one, am very happy with the new characters we've been getting the last few months. But then again, I don't have every character in the game yet. I think that if you do have all the Zs already, you're probably just setting your expectations a bit high to ask that every new character have a spot in your team.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
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  11. Sean Bond

    Sean Bond Well-Known Member

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    I agree that the design strategy is somewhat strange at this point in the game's life. You have characters like Mizell^, Mutoh, Shin'en, etc who are clearly meant to be the best at what they do (magic for the most part), new Zs meant to intro the tap mechanic (which I loathe) and then a bunch of characters who mostly exist either to A) dilute the pool B) give completionists something to do or C) give non-hardcore players slightly improved characters. Lacuma is easily one of the most perplexing units for me, and one that I'm sure I'll pull before a Sayu or Mogha (because I dislike him and want them).

    The only specific shoutout I'll give is for Invincible^. I'm still not convinced they've entirely done it justice, but it's a freebie for all, which is genuinely amazing, and they've given it very serious tanking power now (it can survive a hit from the MZ7 mirror at level 70-something, if it has its buff on). I'd love to see more recodes like Bahl, Bonna, Suoh and Invincible, because they're all excellent and done in a way that doesn't make other characters less viable.
     
  12. TrueShadow

    TrueShadow Active Member

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    @LegendaryFrog

    I guess the problem is they never noticed the problem with "stacking as many buffs as possible" strategy during the design phase of the game, causing something like the trinity or Kuscah/Sorman to be a lot stronger than they were intended to, or certain companions to be weaker than their lower rank counterparts.

    Still waiting for that boss who can dispel your character's buffs.

    @Hubert Ozwell

    Wouldn't Senala be useful on a boss that has a "burst damage" skill you can see coming? Due to the damage formula, 30% decrease in Matk stat roughly reduces damage by 45%. That gives you an extra turn to survive, say, IDK's Axionball, or Bahamut's Meteor. I wouldn't call that entirely useless.

    @Neofalcon

    I want to agree with you, but the 4.0 patch introduced a sudden rise in the power ceiling. Taps, Photon & Graviton, new traps, unofficially ZZ classes and so on. They're also mostly unavailable to non-hardcore players except through pure, real-life Luck. I blame SB grinders.

    On the bright side, things are probably not going to change much. The creep is hopefully going slow after that.
     
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  13. Anubarak

    Anubarak Active Member

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    I think its great that new characters are not that strong... I would have quit the game long time ago if character would become stronger and stronger every single time since the majority won't be able to get them. The result would be: sb grinders would have a very boring time, since they would be able to kill everything really easy - casual players wouldn't have a chance since they won't get the newest characters that fast.

    I'm happy every single time when a new useless character appears because I know I'll never be able to get the new best Z's. It's just frustrating if you want to have a new character and can't get it. I think MW should implement something like spend 100 energy for a Z of your choice
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
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  14. LegendaryFrog

    LegendaryFrog Well-Known Member

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    The problem with that is you turn the game into a pay to win scenario. Of course, all mobile games are like that to an extent, but being able to buy a specific unit will actually result in the opposite situation than what we have now. New characters will become progressively stronger to get people to buy them. What's the point of buying A'merpact^ when you can just buy Mizell^ and never have to spend money again? MW will have to release a more powerful mage or you won't spend money on energy to buy again.

    Honestly, I think the weekly challenge should award players with one random A/B unit (along with the energy). A/B units are basically just recode material at this point and even if some of the new Zs are 'lower quality' they're all definitely better than any of the A/B units available especially when you factor in Luck caps (which still sucks). That way people can re-recode easier.
     

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