Blacky's ban

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Raijinili, Apr 28, 2015.

  1. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    Blacky was just banned for trying to trade off-site.
    We need a statement, @Hyourinmaru, @Eiji, @Bahamut, @Arthuria , @NeoCHI: Who or what are the rules and the mods supposed to protect?

    I think they're supposed to protect the community. How did this ban protect the community? Zero-tolerance rules seem to be primarily concerned with protecting the rules and the authority of the mods. The mods seem to want to enforce the rules for the sake of the rules. What is so harmful about trading that a ban is warranted for members who even do it off-site?
    "If Staff has substantial belief or proof that a monetary transaction has taken place for account exchange of any kind, the punishment is immediate ban. This rule applies even if the exchange has been completed outside the forum such as instant messages, e-mails, etc. or via private messaging inside the forum. Monetary exchange includes but not limited to cash, online credits such as PayPal, bitcoin, etc., gift cards such as iTunes, GooglePlay, etc."

    @Mistwalker Minion, I would also like an opinion from you, as a representative of Mistwalker: Is this how you want your ToS to be enforced? You have a say in this.

    (By the way, in actual, real-life news, BALTIMORE IS BURNING.)
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
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  2. Antsk

    Antsk New Member

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    I thought he was joking, but he seriously did ban blacky.... profile no longer found.. just wow.
     
  3. Hyourinmaru

    Hyourinmaru The Frozen Moderator

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    My Statement: Trading accounts / giving accounts away is not allowed. Telling people to go to X site to trade is the same as doing it here. I think we had enough examples of users who just do it regardless of how many times they've been told not to.
     
  4. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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  5. Mistwalker Minion

    Mistwalker Minion Terra Battle Community Manager

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    I have to agree with Hyourinmaru here. Telling someone "go here to trade" is basically the same thing as discussing/doing it here.

    Honestly it would have been better if that person just reached out via PM or something more discrete.

    But please consider this: What if Blacky said "go here to trade accounts with me ____... "
    The other person goes, and it turns out Blacky scams them out of their account, and the forum mods allowed it to happen.
    In a way, that would make the forum mods almost as culpable as the scammer himself right?
    The victim in this scenario would likely reach out to Mistwalker support as well as the forum mods demanding something be done to compensate them-- and neither party would be able to assist.

    Is this something we want happening here?

    I trust the decisions of the mods. If I disagree with them or would like to offer input, I will do so on my own end rather than as a reaction to being "called out." Having said that, I do appreciate you giving me the opportunity and for bringing the matter to my attention. I really do care about this community and like to be informed. Ultimately, this is a fan-driven community its moderators have made a decision. If the other mods would like to discuss Hyourinmaru's actions, I invite them to do so. I won't unilaterally overturn his decision -- it's really not my place to. As we are in this transitional period and everyone is getting accustomed to the new rules, should we offer a bit of mercy and additional warnings? I leave that for the community to decide.

    Honestly, I would like to direct a lot of traffic and new fans to join this group, so I hope this can grow to be an inclusive, safe place for fans to enjoy Terra Battle together (and not risk being scammed). If you guys don't want additional help/support, then I fear my activity here has been misguided. And there is always the Terra Battle Subreddit for people who appreciate the "wild-west-no-holds-barred" style of community.
     
  6. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    I do not disagree with that particular action being against the rules, and rightfully so. I disagree with this ban being necessary to maintain a safe community.

    Sorry to bring it to your attention this way, and thanks for coming anyway, but I wish to know how much Mistwalker cares about the rule, and only need an answer from two choices:
    1. MW would strongly prefer people to be ejected for trading accounts.
    2. MW has no strong preference for banning (i.e. weak preference or below).

    (There is no PM loophole, and I don't ask for one.)
     
  7. Mistwalker Minion

    Mistwalker Minion Terra Battle Community Manager

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    3. I want this community to run this forum as they see fit, but cannot offer any official support or assistance to a group that allows fraudulent activity to persist. If the moderators believe that suspending users is the way to make this happen, I trust in their decision. If they decide upon an alternative that is equally as effective, I am fine with that too.

    I can't speak on behalf of all of Mistwalker, so I only speak for the Minion here.
     
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  8. xmooseyfate

    xmooseyfate Member

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    I can say this, and it comes from years of experience GMing several games, modding many forums, and being a manager in real life:

    Being a total rule nazi on a smalltime forum is not cool and will make everyone hate you and just do things behind your back. If punishments need to happen, don't go for instaban immediately, issue a warning.

    Italics ftw.
     
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  9. Eiji

    Eiji Active Member

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    I'll answer this to my best understanding of the question. Feel free to tell me if anything is unclear.
    (And apologies for the super late post)

    "Who or what are the rules and the mods supposed to protect?"

    • The rules are as specified in the announcement sections. It's stickied as well. Here is a link to the rules. http://terrabattleforum.com/threads/updated-forum-rules-16-04-2015.7547/
    • The mods are here in best interest of the community's safety. We are here to ensure that members don't get scammed/cheated on by scammers/cheaters. We are here to help and assist. However it is not always possible as we are not available 24/7. That is why we rely on reports by you guys.

    "How did this ban protect the community? "
    • As MwM stated, any member directing another member to an offsite chatroom in intention of trading is essentially the same as trading on this site. Directing users to another site in intention of trading is a bannable offense.
    • Blacky well knew that trading was prohibited, yet he continued with his intention on trading with members from this site even to go as far as to direct users to an offsite chatroom. Blacky did not fear being banned, nor did he value his membership here which was why he persisted on trading. He did not care for the repercussions of his offence. His intentions on trading through directing members to offsite chatrooms did not go unpunished.
    • The ban of Blacky ensure he would no longer do it again, nor give other members the same thought of going unpunished.

    "What is so harmful about trading that a ban is warranted for members who even do it off-site?"
    • Again, as MwM stated, trading can easily lead to scamming which is harmful to the community as we let it happen through our own forum which was easily preventable. Thus, it's easier to cease all activity of such than to have someone possibly scammed through our forum as it has happened before.
    • We've considered keeping the trade section in the revision of forum rules but we cannot serve as middle men between trades as it would put blame/responsibility upon the staff should anything go wrong, we cannot vouch for members both old and new who're interested in trading, nor can we compensate loss of an account either. None of the ways considered ensured trading would be 100% without problem. Thus trading cease.

     
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  10. Eiji

    Eiji Active Member

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    We will take that into consideration. But as of right now, if people are not fit with our rules, they are more than free to leave as we do not imprison our members, we won't even beg them to stay.
    We already are aware of the hate that could amount from maintaining our roles and enforcing the rules from members. If they choose to go behind our backs, they will be banned should we find out.
    If we were total rule nazis then half the people in chat would be banned because of their use of profanity and new members would be banned for offences they didn't know were offences.
    There are rules we are more lenient on and those two are examples of such.
     
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  11. Eiji

    Eiji Active Member

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    What do you suggest we do in this case should it ever happen again? We will take suggestions as we've always have.
     
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  12. conndubya

    conndubya Active Member

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    Ugghhh, I feel like a total dirtbag. I can't believe a chat room I set up is what got Blacky Banned!

    I understand the reason for banning trades due to scamming. I did not have any negative experiences with the few trades/give aways I participated in prior to the ban and felt this was a very tangible way to foster teamwork and altruism in the forum. That being said it would be horrible if I had been scammed with a trade and had lost an account/money/item etc. that was very valuable to me. Unfortunately there is a very ugly flip side to an otherwise very good activity that cannot be mitigated by the forum leadership and hence the ban.

    I apologize to Blacky and the rest of the forum for presenting such a temptation in the chat. I always had positive experiences with Blacky in the chat and in the rest of the forum and will miss him as a member.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2015
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  13. Nyquist

    Nyquist Active Member

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    I believe a strike system would be more efficient in conveying intention and banning people for repeated offence. Just like in real world we do not drop people into the prison. Usually it is the last and least preferred solution.

    I understand the reason this forum had to go this way and it is a shame. Especialy the give aways had helped lots of new people.
     
  14. G Malo

    G Malo Terra Battler

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    If the forum staff makes a disciplinary decision and it leads to public scrutiny and them being labelled as "bad guys" so be it, but I want to point out that I stepped down from being a moderator because I felt like there was more people against me than with me in regards to enforcing the rules and frankly, I was not used to being the "bad guy" and it is rather unsettling, not only was the constant need to defend my actions tiresome but the amount of hatred that can be directed towards the staff was too much for me to take, please keep this in mind the next time you want to jump down a mods throat and be respectful in bringing concerns forward by doing it through a private message rather than a public discussion. Also, the most important factor in successfully moving forward is cooperation, dissidence will only make the growing pains worse so let's all cooperate in making this community better by working together instead of picking sides.
     
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  15. Mistwalker Minion

    Mistwalker Minion Terra Battle Community Manager

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    Here here -- and I, for one, and delighted by your return. Mod or not, it's nice to have helpful people in this community.
     
  16. xmooseyfate

    xmooseyfate Member

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    EDIT: Nvm, decided I don't want to get involved. Too old for this. Ty for making Terra Battle!
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2015
  17. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    @Eiji
    Don't justify with, "It's in the rules." Those questions don't warrant that answer. And don't ascribe such ridiculous intentions and values to an absent person like that.

    Trades are not forbidden because people successfully trading is something we hate (and though there's an argument against that, it is not one that was used by this forum). Trades are forbidden because allowing them sets up an environment where people can more easily scam others. Let's get that straight: for TBF, trades aren't banned because trades are bad, but because they are collateral damage in the prevention of actual bad things. (And I really do support that rule.)

    If you make it a "bannable offense", it isn't, "We will punish you for doing something bad", bur rather, "We will punish you for doing something something that, if a lot of people do it, will let OTHER PEOPLE do bad things. Or maybe you'll do it. Meh, whatever."

    Warning, temp ban, restrictions on chat activity (if possible), or almost anything else. I've seen four mods that don't seem to think of permabans as last resorts, and two that do it flippantly.

    Like I said to MwM in PM, bans in a forum are very different from bans from Facebook and Twitter. There, it mostly means you can't carry out the primary function: communicating with the owner of the page. The primary function of a forum is for members to interact with each other, and a ban is a decision that we don't want that person interacting with us. With that in mind, bans don't need to have community support (and I mean, significant, e.g. >5-10%, support, not popular support), but mods should consider "we as a community don't want you here" as a factor in deciding what are bannable offenses.

    Someone just got forcibly and permanently removed from that community. Let's improve the community by working together to stop the mods from thinking of members as tools for ad money, or examples (read: to assert your authority).

    And I'm bringing this to public because I have a fundamental disagreement with the apparent beliefs of the staff about what rules and punishment are for in a forum. That's reason enough for public discussion.
     
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  18. G Malo

    G Malo Terra Battler

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    Member 2889 there is a rule saying this exact type of public discussion is not allowed, why is it that you feel like you are above the rules and are within your right to create civil unrest here in the community? You are not a mod and probably never will be (thank goodness), I think you need to chill out and take some time to reflect on how much you are out of line with this back-seat moderating. :finger:
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2015
  19. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    Rules...
    "There will be no posts meant to offend or hurt any other member, in a manner which is offensive or inflammatory. All members will be treated with respect."

    I would say namecalling and ":finger:" make the intent of your post clear. I expect that you'll assume I'm taking offense.

    (Why do we even have a finger emoticon?)
    I did this in direct contradiction to Hyou. I don't think I'm above the rules, I am just relying on the mods to remember that they have discretion, and can't justify punishment with, "It's in the rules."
    As I told you when you sent me an official-looking warning for criticizing your actions in private, this is not against the rules. The rule is actually against what's more commonly known as mini-modding: policing other (regular) members as if you're a mod. (This is almost what you're doing now, ironically.)
    Something we agree on!
     
  20. G Malo

    G Malo Terra Battler

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    I actually edited my comment to remove the quote but I am glad you seen it and the :finger: emote is the hang loose symbol isn't it? You are by no means the official word on the forum rules just because you spend the most time dissecting them. Anyway Pandemon, you really need to ease up on the dissidence because you are becoming cancerous. Hang loose, :finger::finger::finger::finger::finger::finger:
     

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