Blacky's ban

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Raijinili, Apr 28, 2015.

  1. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    I don't participate in flame wars, because I suck at them.

    Do you have anything to say about my question?
     
  2. G Malo

    G Malo Terra Battler

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    The rules are to protect you, problem solved, now let's move on and get back to generating ad money. You of all people should be coming up with something more constructive with your big brain anyway.
     
  3. G Malo

    G Malo Terra Battler

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    This new RPG is probably more suitable to this lame argument.
     
  4. Dead Tamagotchi

    Dead Tamagotchi Member

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    Thought Pandemon made a double win streak, but it looks like we have more than just Pandemon, whose troll value has been largely overrated.

    So the news is that Blacky is banned. Is Raijinili also banned? Not yet? How come? It defies zero-tolerance/brutal dictatorsmods premise of the topic.

    We Raijinilys?
    I'll follow some members that jumped in to express their opinion, so take my apology for not being in your list (you brought it in public for a reason anyway).
    [Generally speaking] The moderators obviously protect the order described in the rules. And rules protect all of the members and have special privileges for moderators to allow them to do the above. And don't bother (and tempt yourself) to address the admin, because he is forum god and has no rules :)

    You are so late with trading ban criticism it is surprising. Where were you when Pandemon was crying for help? He might have not found proper words or methods to describe his dissent, but if you basically felt the same authoritarian pressure getting heavier on members, you had a chance to join efforts with many others to petition some ease, or exceptions, or rephrasing, whatever, and to help those like Pandemon, Blacky, who felt their TBF world/life was shattered, their rights violated for the sake of totalitarian control, to tunnel their concerns in a constructive manner. That effort might have resulted in the same state as present, but with more explanations, reasons, understanding, reconciliation. And maybe some more members would have learned to cope with the changes. But you didn't protest/seek answers at that crucial moment.

    The community was not consulted over forthcoming changes, which for me was a clear indication the rules are final, non-negotiable. And only a Forum with no self-respect does not enforce its rules. The level of tolerance for a member's misdemeanor is also noted in the Rules.
    I support giving people a warning prior to a capital punishment, but neither you nor I are in the Staff. Anyone has to respect their judgement or leave.

    Only line I disagree with. Guys, if you want to do anything trade related, forget about this Forum. PM or other cover-up attempt will yield a sure ban.

    http://www.mistwalkercorp.com/en/games/terms/

    Sorry for this short deviation. G Malo, your perturbation is still not fully explained. Why did you step forward to take all the (expected) hits that ensued after the introduction of new Rules? And why not a single Staff member strongly supported you in that "suicide" mission? (Or they did by their silence?) Everything was presented as if you were the driving force of the change, a zealot behind "everything bad" that new Rules bring, only to become sacrificial lamb later to quench the blood thirst of few openly dissatisfied members.

    … and no 'Thumbs up'…


    Dear Staff members, sorry for some offtopic, but I thought you would have immediately locked the thread if you didn't want to hear general members' thoughts on the matter.
     
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  5. Spyhunter

    Spyhunter Member

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    Guys, I am late to this party but have to put in a word of support here for the moderators. This is a pretty thankless job and we all benefit from them doing it.

    This forum isn't your forum. The moderators own it and are trying to be fully inline with the rules expressed by MW. If you can't deal with not trading / porn just leave. Stop attacking and using quotes of Adolf Hitler as a comparison to what the mods have done. You sound immature and childish. In particular the quote of hitler was is insulting to people everywhere, but to compare the actions of keeping a clean forum to someone eg kill millions of people is beyond inappropriate and I think deserves an apology to the mods

    The mod have real lifes. I am sure that they ban etc not because they are mean dictators but because they have many things going on and trying to track warnings and constantly argue with people is stressful and takes too much time

    Let's all move on and get back to enjoying this great game and site

    Chris
    Ps. I will personally miss rexients amazingly hot fan art ;)
     
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  6. Mistwalker Minion

    Mistwalker Minion Terra Battle Community Manager

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    Hey everyone -- I'm not a mod, and I honestly wish I had said this yesterday before things escalated, but I believe this conversation has been carried to its only logical conclusion.

    Once again, I am not a mod, but I recommend we close out this thread together since it's apparently going in circles (not an ACTUAL official closing using forum functions -- that may be poorly received and interpreted as being to authoritarian).

    The bottom line is, Raijinili has a fundamental difference of opinion with some actions taken by moderators. Both sides have said their piece, and they will walk away from this situation believing they were "right." Honestly, this is OK.

    We've had our discussion, opinions were voiced, and even if no one "switched sides" I think we all come away with a better understanding of how each other felt about the situation.

    Blatantly disregarding the rules is bad, and bans are serious, so careful consideration should be taken when levying them. Let's keep these things in mind as we move forward and foster a healthy, happy community.
     
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  7. G Malo

    G Malo Terra Battler

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    I for one would like this to be over and done with but even walking away did not help me be free of the lashback from dissident people. The amount of griefing I have been receiving since the rule changes has become blatant harassment and a large majority of it comes through other social media, so I suspect the majority of it is coming from former TBF members but this is the number one reason I left to begin with. I have tried giving up my position of authority, a public statement/apology and ignoring the harassment but none of it has worked at stopping the hate being directed at me (who knows what the current staff is dealing with) and it has recently been escalated to someone impersonating me on other media! I think the time for being nice is long since done and it is because of fanatics like the one's that are attacking me that we currently have this rising rebellion amongst our community. If the community doesn't stand together united against those that are defying the new rules and direction the forum is going then we only stand to lose. Think about it, do you want this site to be a den of scum and villainy? If so then by all means stand back and watch "freedom fighters" try to burn it to the ground but if you want it to continue to be the place where many of the best and brightest players gather then stand up against these nonsensical rebels and put them in their place. They will go away if they know we collective don't tolerate them.
     
  8. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    I object to the zero-tolerance rules. I do not call all of the rules zero-tolerance. There's no "brutal dictators premise." It's, "Bans are not considered a last resort by the mods," and, "This rule is not against something that is bad in itself."
    The ban, then, weighs the value of the member versus the value of the order, scaled by how much removing the single member would help the order (i.e. prevent scams).
    I said that I agree with trading being forbidden.
    Lawyers.
    Off-topic: While I'm sure there were people against him about the rules, there were also those against him for his actions on that one day. He's not as much of a martyr as you might think.

    G Malo allowed a known, identified, repeatedly-banned troll to stay in chat, and threatened to ban anyone who co-op'd with him. He made his intentions clear with statements like, "Pandemon, I'm just letting you stay so that you can bring others down with you." He ended up permabanning EpicPotato (who had an open room) and leekami (who claims that he just came in and didn't see that). Pandemon was still left alone.

    When I approached him in private about this, he basically justified himself with, "They were warned." I sent off a profanity-laced tirade to Hyou and Eiji (two others who knew about Pandemon), and included G Malo (so that I wouldn't be going behind his back, if you'll believe it). He continued to justify his actions as "needing to make an example," and threatened me (in another private) with mod action for what was basically criticism of his actions (he considers it to be "backseat moderating"). Others were more public with their criticism, and I don't know who else was doing it privately, but I doubt his quitting was unrelated to this incident, and his grudge against me in particular is apparent in this topic.

    The same issues apply to that: What are the mods and rules protecting? What is the value of a member? A ban can't be justified with "it's in the rules" or "I warned them", but should weigh the value of a member against the effectiveness that the ban helps protect.

    (He did apologize for banning them, and I would be wronging him if I didn't mention it. But let's not let it stand that he was simply criticized for "enforcing the rules".)
    I still want @Eiji and @Hyourinmaru to respond to my claims that:
    1. Trading itself (i.e. non-scam) is not bad (to TBF, anyway), it's just forbidden because other things can masquerade as it.
    2. The punishment could have been less than a permaban (e.g. chat restrictions, if possible) and still have been effective enough, considering the cost of a member of the community.
     
  9. Mistwalker Minion

    Mistwalker Minion Terra Battle Community Manager

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    I understand your concerns, and it's clear your voice has been heard. The mods are not obligated to respond to you; no one is on trial here.

    From my point of view (I'm not speaking for anyone other than myself here), trading is bad for 2 simple reasons:
    1. It can lead to scamming (as we thoroughly discussed).
    2. The other is a legal technicality voiced clearly in the terms of service found in every free to play game since the dawn of time: You can't sell/trade/give away something that's not actually yours. The terms of service we all agree to explain this pretty clearly. Could you imagine leasing a car from a Ford dealership and trading it with your friend who is leasing a car from a Honda dealership. Do you think they would be happy about that?

    As for the punishment -- you are right, it could have been less severe. It also could have been more severe (IP ban, pitchforks, death penalty). The bottom line is, it has happened and you have voiced your disagreement with the decision. Perhaps this dissenting opinion may shape future decisions the moderators make.

    The one thing I wish we could have is a way for banned users to still PM mods -- maybe have like a "tiered" punishment system. A general block from posting -- they can PM mods to explain their case, and then a full blown "you're outta here" block. I don't know if this is technically possible, but it's worth looking into.

    As I've mentioned, we have a simple disagreement, and pounding it into the ground is not constructive in any way.

    As for what's happened to you G Malo, that really is unfortunate :( But we don't really have the power to stop people on other platforms. Cyberbullying and harassment are awful things that really shouldn't exist. That said, I still think the majority of fans here are just good, honest people. I don't believe we are in danger of this becoming a den of "scum and villainy." And I am thankful for the role mods play in that. Those who disagree with the mods -- so long as they do so respectively -- also play a role in keeping things "in-check."

    Not everyone likes "Zero Tolerance" rules, but the bottom line is, they exist. I'm glad we have a system where we can discuss things, but at some point, the discussion becomes futile and we must simply agree to disagree.
     
  10. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    Not obligated, no. They're not even obligated to leave this up, and I appreciate that they did. I just want them to, as it is NOT clear to me that I've made my position known (e.g. arguing from the belief I'm against the trading rule).
     
  11. supergaijin

    supergaijin Well-Known Member

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    I was alerted to this thread by chat so I'm leaving a comment. I support the warning system, especially if it wasn't a flagrant and intentional abuse of the TOS of MW and the forum. permabanning should only be for flagrant abuse. of course every mod will have a different take on what's flagrant so here's a suggestion:

    when someone is caught/reported violating a rule, temp ban them. then, have discussion between mods/staff for a consensus of the final outcome and if discussion results in only a temp ban for a period of time and a warning, communicate with the member why they were temp banned. this makes it easier to have the cooler heads prevail and no more permabanning without just cause.
     
  12. P'sh

    P'sh Active Member

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    Let's pincer attack them!
     
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  13. Dr. Class

    Dr. Class Well-Known Member

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    Well, I rarely participate in discussions like this but I would like to say something because I find it rather saddening when good friends (forumers) are at each other's necks.

    I've been part of many forums - each I've witnessed the ebb and flow of people in and out of the community, I've seen mods that'll ban you for anything they want, and forumers that'll do whatever they want and get away with it. I've witnessed my fair share of bans, and the backlash of people against them.
    I agree with Malo when he says Mods get the short end of the stick; I've seen much less mods held in high esteem then mods that are hated.
    And the mods that aren't hated are usually the ones that rarely enforce (thus, public favor)

    Out of all this I recognize that it isn't easy being anyone in charge.
    When you wield power, everyone is going to judge you for what you do.
    Every decision you make will have an effect,
    Every decision you don't make will have an effect.
    To be able to discern whether or not to act, and how severely, in an effort to appease the public as well as keep them safe is no easy feat.

    i've tried to keep a certain level of apathy when it comes to moderator decisions,
    as long as I know the rules, and avoid infringement,
    I'm pretty safe.
    I've managed to survive without a single ban throughout every forum I've been on. (and seldom warnings either)
    I don't usually even interact with mods,
    TBF is one of the few forums I've seen where the mods play such a large part in the community without moderator action.

    Basically, whether I like it or not, I accept mod decisions.
    You have to understand that more often then not, action is better then inaction.
    Mods who overreact (though usually disliked) often keep tidier forums then mods who don't act at all.

    You should however, (to an extent) voice your opinion on mod decisions.
    Rules are meant to be enforced, and a zero-tolerance policy is tried and tested; (from forum to government)
    the number one priority of mods is to ensure the safety and sanctity of the forum and its members, not to appease the masses.
    In a perfect world a mod will make a decision,
    one or two people will openly disagree with it.
    A mod will state why they made the decision and how it ties into the rules,
    and the people will accept it.
    There is equal fault if a member of the forum tries to critique the rules, and a mod does not justify their action.
    A mod should not have to justify their action, but people will disagree, and the best mods will explain to the extent of their power, why what they did was the right move.
    There is only further chaos to be had when that justification is doubted, or if the people wish to change the decision.

    It's human nature to want to be free, and unrestricted, and to question authority.
    In America more then half the population believe the police do a "fair to poor" job at best.

    It seems I got a little carried away. :D
     
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  14. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    Given the direction of this thread, I'd like to point out that I probably wasn't the one who mentioned it.
    My argument in this case is that the rule in question is not intended to stop something harmful enough to be worth insta-banning.
    I also have been a mod for several communities, which is a big part of why I don't like what I see here. I am aware of my ego, and I am aware of my temper, and I was always worried about either one leading to unfair or unnecessary use of authority. My primary concern as a mod was fairness to members, not harshness of criticism.

    (I agreed with G Malo about it being a good thing that I wouldn't ever be a mod here, because I wouldn't have to try as hard to keep a cool head.)
     
  15. Dr. Class

    Dr. Class Well-Known Member

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    Sounds reasonable.
    It was pretty late when I wrote that, and I'm not sure what exactly I was trying to say :D but as long as violence doesn't lead to more violence (per se, I'm just referring to dissatisfaction) I'm happy.
     
  16. Rodland

    Rodland Active Member

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    • It is forbidden to sell, trade or giveaway game accounts within this community.
    • Advertisements or promotions of other products and services are not allowed. It is of course perfectly allowed to link to content from any of the following sources:
    I kindly ask to be added the fact of not recommending the use of other sites to do it(trades).
    I would also ask if Blacky has deserved the ban permanent and not just a warning example for 24 hours.
     
  17. Rodland

    Rodland Active Member

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    I managed to find the chat which Blacky gave the link and I think it is right shows here what he thinks:
    Blacky: I'll just leave this here for all who sees this page: I did not break the rules. I said I wanted to trade, but not on terrabattleforum.com.
    Blacky: I was warned that trade was forbidden on terrabattleforum and nothing more than that.
    Blacky: I never traded.
    Blacky: Also, Eiji is an irresponsible moderator who loves to point fingers and jump to conclusions. He failed in his duty as a moderator.
    Blacky: Hyourinmaru calls me "a random who hails with Panda", yet I barely know Panda at all.
    Blacky: Without knowing I had broken any rule, Hyou cheekily says. "see ya, blacky"
    Blacky: Well, these two failures are not worth my time, so I shall not bother to speak with them.


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
  18. Tealius

    Tealius The Magic Mint Mod

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    Why is it so hard to understand that trading is not allowed here in any form? Like, saying "I'm going to sell drugs, but selling drugs is illegal in public, so I am going to go in public and say I am going to sell drugs at my house, because that is not in public." Trading here IN ANY FORM is not allowed in this community, and that includes endorsing trades somewhere else on here. It's not allowed here, and saying you are going to do it somewhere else on here is basically saying in public that you are going to trade within the community, but not in the community's public space.

    EDIT: Asking to trade on this community through another site is still using this community to trade. Plain and simple.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
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  19. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    Rodland, it is an offense to the other people in a discussion to ignore arguments that have already been made.

    People have given reasons why leading someone outside to do trading would be just as bad as trading in the channel. If you want to bring it up again, the least you can do is acknowledge those arguments and say why they don't apply.
     
  20. Rodland

    Rodland Active Member

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    I simply asked that the rules be extended and to be more inclusive for all. I do not think I was offensive.
    I also agree with the new rules. But you continue to defend something that can not be defended and decide to return and ban only those who are not comfortable with you .
    Please look at this 2 pictures and say to me why Yuki juday is not banned yet. I have nothing against him but when you try to make me go to the wrong side, it bothers me a lot.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    I have other proof about other members, if you want more just continue to pretend to be right.
     

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