Blacky's ban

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Raijinili, Apr 28, 2015.

  1. supergaijin

    supergaijin Well-Known Member

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    the first pic you show is one of the bannable offenses, and in that case if you want him banned you bring attention to it. when a mod sees it directly they can immediately take action and when they don't you report it and they take action ;)

    for the second, that's a wasted effort on your part to start something. that is obviously trading co-op runs, not accounts. no need to stir the fire unnecessarily. I trade runs all the time and many others do as well because that's what co-op is for.
     
  2. Rodland

    Rodland Active Member

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    I don't want him banned, I want justice and equal sign for all.
    I'm sick of certain attitudes which will decide who to ban and who is not based on the relationship with them and according to mood of the moderators .
    That day he did not speak to exchange runs , I followed the speech . Anyway in the first picture we can see he did not respect the rules but as you see he is still present in the forum .
    While we all know others have been banned for much less . Here it is for us to continue to close eyes or try to obtain equal treatment for all .
     
  3. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    He's not banned because the mods didn't see that. Even if they did, it isn't clear that he knew about the new rules at the time. The second screenshot was asking for stamina trade.
     
  4. Rodland

    Rodland Active Member

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    It was repeated over and over again by moderators that the fact of not knowing the rules is not a valid argument.
     
  5. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    I don't know anyone who was ever banned for simply asking for a trade.

    Anyway, here's the rule that Blacky broke, if you want to be a lawyer about it:
    "Any violations that are done through private messages or back channels such as e-mails, instant messages, etc. will be considered as a more severe violation and punished accordingly."
     
  6. Rodland

    Rodland Active Member

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    This is your topic and the title is:
    Blacky's ban
    You don't say!
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
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  7. Tealius

    Tealius The Magic Mint Mod

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    Maybe that's because it's against the rules and people know that you shouldn't ask to do it here?
     
  8. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    As if people know the changes in the rules.
     
  9. Tealius

    Tealius The Magic Mint Mod

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    The staff did their job in notifying us about the rule changes. Don't blame them for you not knowing. It's your job to inform yourself of the changes once they've announced it, which they have multiple times. People have to have personal responsibility.
     
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  10. Chev4

    Chev4 Active Member

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    I used to be on a forum called Smogon(pokemon related), seeing that it's pokemon, trading is allowed and happens alot there, and yes, of course people get scam, but all the good out weights the bad. Anyway whatever most people here aren't affected by this new rule.

    On smogon unlike this forum, when you break a rule you aren't ban from the site(you get label saying blacklisted), and when someone is banned, everyone in the community knows why(for awareness, to prevent more scamming) and said person is allowed to make a case(publicly).

    If a person is then found guilty, then they're given the opportunity to prove to the community and the mods they have change, by helping others out. If they can prove to a good amount of members and mods that they've change, the label is then remove and they're given all the priviledges of a regular member again.

    The reason I am mentoining this is because I agree with Raijinili, this site could stand to be alot more welcoming to new players. In blacky's case I can sympathize with someone spending days trying to get their ideal character, but can't, because MW used a gatcha system to milk money, when the could've created a fire emblem or tactics recruitment system and charge a flat rate, but I digress.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
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  11. Rodland

    Rodland Active Member

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    I was sure that someone with a minimum of logical reasoning was in this forum. A lot of people need to learn from you.
     
  12. Kivanc

    Kivanc The Data Keeper

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    Although I am on (kind of) leave due to personal life issues, this thread raised my issue due to a moderation request.

    First wow, just wow. It is nice to see that people want and strive for a true democracy, but I doubt that this thread contributes.

    @Raijinili There is no such thing like a true democracy and/or a place where people can live happily ever after. Anywhere there are rules, there are enforcers, anywhere there are enforcers, there will be people who are happy with the enforcement and who are not. There will be also different types of enforcers; ones that have little patience to ones that have high patience. The only way what you want can be achieved through no rules, which leads to nothing but anarchy!

    I know your background, so I am pretty sure that you discuss this from a philosophical point of view as well. If that is the case, just don't. I would love to discuss Plato and the "Theory of Ideas" with you for days, but again a real-life forum is not the place to do that.

    Returning back to the topic: the result protect community, which includes all members, including the moderators, and the forum as well. If a member violates a bannable offense, then he gets banned, regardless of whether he knows the rules or not. I will purposefully exaggerate the following example: in real life, you cannot go and rob a bank, and when you get caught say: "Oh, I did not know that it was against the rules". You WILL get punished. Yes, for bank robbery, it might not be something that correlates to ban but there are violations in real life that will get you banned from the real life as well. There are still many places where death penalty is a punishment. The forum (and the Internet) is no different; depending on the violation there are punishments.

    Second, you should NOT question whether a moderator decision was correct or not in public. Please read this carefully as I am not telling "you should not discuss". I am not also telling that this particular decision was correct/incorrect as again I was away when it happened. Moderators can take incorrect decisions (again not saying that this was the case), however this can be only discussed/evaluated within the Staff members as well. Giving real life example, if a judge gives an incorrect decision, a citizen cannot question him/her, not to the degree that "I demand an answer". Apologies if this is no the case, but your initial post and the remaining ones in this thread gives me the impression that you are NOT discussing the actions, but questioning them.

    When you sign-in to a forum, you agree to ToS. This implies that you read and agree to the forum rules, which can (and will with the nature of life) change in the future, and you agree that you will keep following them even if you are not notified. I doubt that when the forum rules were changed moderators did not let people know in many ways, as much as they can. If the banned person (does not have to be this particular ban) did not get the update for some reason, then again, it is out of our power: I cannot (exaggerating just for making it clear) track that person in real life, go to his house and let him/her know that the forum rules are changed. This is similar in many places in the Internet: if you violate a rule of Amazon/PayPal/a bank, etc., they close your account, ban your IP, give other punishments, etc. I don't get why you expect it to be different in a forum.

    Again, the rules are to protect the community. If some action (e.g., trading) has some chance to taint a community, even with little chance, I also think (along with @G Malo, @Mistwalker Minion , and other moderators) that it should be punished. My final exaggeration: I would rather make this community be known as "Damn, that is the place where people got banned for the suspicion of making trades", rather than "Yeah, that is the place where people share/sell/create hacked/stolen accounts. Complete scam and spam". I am sure that you can search for the latter places, again we are making our best to prevent it. The process requires some sacrifices as with any kind of management.

    I am not immediately closing the thread (because we are not dictators), however I agree with @Mistwalker Minion that the discussion is NOT helping. I feel that your question has been answered many times. It does not have to be the answer you want and/or satisfactory. If you think that your question is not answered, please rephrase it. Don't think in Math terms, don't play with words. Ensure that the question is clear and any person reading that can answer it clearly. You WILL get an answer, again it does not have to be the one that you like/are looking for.
     
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  13. Kivanc

    Kivanc The Data Keeper

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    All interesting and nice suggestions.

    Most of the time before banning a member, I generally try to contact them through PM and give them a chance to explain their actions and/or the situation. I only ban them if I don't get an answer or they keep doing whatever they are doing although they told me that they are not.

    Some of the suggestions you have requires tons of support from the underlying forum software: e.g., to have a way to measure whether a forum member is helping others, you need a serious rep system. This is not as simple as: "oh look at his likes" since those approaches can easily be gambled and/or manipulated. So unless the underlying forum software permits it, I don't see a way to make it happen. If you have concrete suggestions, feel free to send us (Staff) a PM.
     
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  14. Chev4

    Chev4 Active Member

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    Sorry it wasn't meant to be a suggestion, this forum is what it's, also you're over thinking it, It doesn't require likes or new software to track members interaction, can just read through their comments or have older well known members back them up(requirements can vary). And if you're every interested you can check out smogon.
     
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  15. Rodland

    Rodland Active Member

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    It would be nice too if all admins were like you.
     
  16. Kivanc

    Kivanc The Data Keeper

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    I had been inactive for a while now, so I might be missing part of the events, but when I was active, to the best of my knowledge, this was already the case.

    I will be honest; I could probably say that I was the most strict (read: eager to ban) mod within the group. Still, I would never immediately ban someone (unless there is an obvious bannable action, e.g., spamming the forum, etc.) before talking to my peers and collecting more information. I would imagine that this is still the case. From outside, it might look like that we wake up and randomly decide to punish members due to actions, but in reality it never is that simple.
     
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  17. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    You are assuming arguments I haven't made.

    Me: I haven't seen people get banned for just wanting to trade.
    You: Maybe because they know it's against the rules.
    Me: As if people know the rules. (I.e. that assumes that everyone familiarizes themselves with rules changes.)
    You: It's not the mod's fault if you don't know the rules.

    (By the way, it would be good if rules changes were displayed to chat-only members.)
    I am not arguing from the point of view of "democracy = win". If you want to get philosophical, I am objecting to the value system of the people in power, not to the system that gives them that power. If you're going to argue against a point of view I don't agree with, you're wasting both your time and mine.
    I am also not arguing from ignorance of the rules. Blacky clearly knew that it was against the rules, and you can see from above that my argument about ignorance was only to Tealius, and only that "there exists people who are ignorant".

    Anyway, what I do argue against is that there is nothing inherently wrong (according to TBF, not in general) with (successful) trading, so that should be taken into account when deciding what should be bannable.
    1. I am questioning the decision, yes. Rather, I am questioning the intent of the decision, and whether they are in line with the intent of the rule.
    2. I have experience as a mod and as an admin. I am familiar with people arguing for freedom of speech (private forums are not subject to Bill of Rights restrictions) and democracy (it's not you, it's us). These are all arguments from absoluteness: ultimately, who has the power, and who has the rights? I am not making those ultimate arguments.
    3. To be blunt, this is what I think I see in the mod staff: people who asked for mod positions because they thought it would be cool to have a position, and then let themselves get too far away from the members. I don't see people who consider the member when they ban, but instead people who dismiss the member before they ban. The next time Hyou hesitates before banning someone, I imagine he might think, "Will this mean Rajinili makes another thread?" instead of, "Can this be resolved while letting this person improve as a member?"
    3. Yes, this thread makes it unlikely that Blacky's ban will be overturned. Blacky already accepted the ban. If it means that the mods will rethink their values so that it wouldn't happen in the future, that'd be great.

    (Irrelevant: In real life, the judge passing down the decision has to justify the decision thoroughly, both because there's an appeals system and because that decision will be used by other judges who can't necessarily go to the original judge and ask what's up (e.g. death prevents that).)
    1. For abuse (i.e. doing actual bad things with their service that harms people or the company).
    2. Because the mods are also members, and the forum is a place for members to interact, and the mods can talk to the members first.
    (Irrelevant: TBF existed like that before, and didn't get that reputation. Well, except to MW's support team.)
    Eiji did answer. (My response was about the cost of the ban and how he misunderstood my perspective.)

    Hyou did not answer. NeoCHI did not answer, but that's par for the course.

    I got an answer from Mistwalker Minion in private.
     
  18. Rodland

    Rodland Active Member

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    I can certainly tell you that you are an example of how a moderator should be. But unfortunately not everyone is so(I'm talking in general for any forum no case in particular). Many moderators believe they can do a little what they want and think they are never wrong. In the past I've owned my forums and as such I devoted much time and tried to behave well with anyone. The problems began when I decided to promote in moderating some members that I did not know in person. When I was away , they took my place and everything they said was supposed to be the law. The forum was a serious decline of members who decided to leave the community.
    I'd only be able to see more flexibility and understanding on the part of some moderators.
    Hasty decisions , do not let the members to explain their reasons , permanent bann for minor things and attitudes of superiority , will not lead to anything good .
    I like this forum , I really enjoyed it and I would not want it to become unbearable for some behaviors . Have a good gay!
     
  19. Kivanc

    Kivanc The Data Keeper

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    When I have more time, I will write a longer reply, replying some previous writings and giving more details, as far as I understand the problem is mutual misunderstanding (or not willingness to understand) between Staff and the users. Let me explain with two examples:

    1. When referral codes first popped up, we did not have a rule to post/promote them. People, including myself, put their referral codes without letting other members know that it was a one-time use where the other person might not reciprocate. Very soon after this happened, users started complain (rightfully) and mentioned that they felt "cheated". I tried to create some reasonable rules on how and where the referral codes can be posted. However, the forum already had two problems at this point:
    a. There were 20 pages of threads in various places of the forum promoting referral codes incorrectly.
    b. New people kept starting threads in incorrect sections with incorrect format.
    In other words, because the staff was late to make decisions and create rules, the situation was almost out of control.

    What happened: I first tried to scare people by announcing that I will be giving warnings to people who don't delete/modify their thread within a day. A day passed. Almost nothing happens. I give a few warnings. I announce again that they have one more day to clean things or otherwise I will start giving harsher punishments. Another day passes. Almost nothing happens. I start sending people PMs, trying to help them recognize the rules and correct the problem themselves. I give a few more warnings. Give them another they. After about a week, if there were 10% improvement (due to understanding and good people), there were at least 50% more incorrect threads. Why? Because people saw incorrect threads more than the correct ones and kept creating threads similar to those.
    I ended up spending 3 days, almost full time, cleaning up the related sections myself and PMing users, again trying to teach them how to correctly ask for referrals.

    Was this a good approach? I would say so (probably you guys would also agree). Is this feasible? Not at all. At that point, I was lucky to have time to spend on this, but I would completely understand if a Staff member cannot spend that amount of time.

    Referrals are not that serious. If you are cheated, then cannot get a few energy. Some people's heart will be broken, but that will probably get forgotten. The point is, the same problem applies to the trades (and other issues). Are there fair trades? Yes. Did we have bad trades and/or people trying to make a profit out of it? Unfortunately yes. The forum might have permitted at the beginning, but eventually as staff members, we realized that there is no sane way to monitor the trades, it is already against MW ToS, and it gives more harm (that most users don't see, willing to forget and/or don't care) than benefits.

    Here is the second (shorter) example: Do people remember Kev the hacker? He became famous by giving people unlimited referrals in seconds! I was immediately suspicious since it was too good to be true. But as a nice mod, I just waited since I did not have proof other than my personal suspicion. People started to complain, so I requested Kev how he does it and he explained his method. After understanding that the method is against forum rules, I warned him and told him that if he continues doing this, he will get banned for good. (Still playing the good guy) He said that he will not do that and he apologized. What happened? After this promise, I got proof from another member that he keeps doing it. Did it help him become a better member? Apparently not.

    Again, I am not saying that all members/violations are like this. There can of course be violations where people did it unconsciously and would benefit a second chance. However, while asking us to understand your point of view, please try to understand our point of view as well. Historically, at least in my personal experience, the people who violate heavy rules (e.g., hacking, selling, etc.) rarely get better. One (the mods, the forum, etc.) have to be very careful about the time permitted to those people as the damage they give to the community quickly gets bigger than the benefit they might have provided the community if they would have gotten better.
     
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  20. Rodland

    Rodland Active Member

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    I reiterate to say that your behavior has been of the best. I don't want to do real examples if you want them, please contact me via pm!
    I can assure you that I saw some bann without giving a second chance and without letting the user explain their reasons. What I would say is that someone were banned without anykind of advice and will no longer be able to come back to this forum. I don't think it is right. That is all!
    ps:Maybe you weren't present when some facts happened on this forum.
     

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