[Group effort!] Let's build a character guide.

Discussion in 'Units & Items' started by Raijinili, Apr 17, 2015.

  1. Inagaki

    Inagaki Active Member

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    "Amimari (Mediocre Healer)". Euh,.. Have you ever played with her ? First, do you have Amimari on your account? Because saying such thing about her make me speechless, and almost revulsed. Amimari is more than amazing as an healer. Yes she does not have heal all, but she heals so much more than Kuscha and Sorman. If you know how to play with her, you can almost never die. Please for the sake of god, if you are making a guide, at least do not underestimate characters, and have them.
     
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  2. Joe

    Joe Active Member

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    LOL :D
     
  3. EpicPotato

    EpicPotato Active Member

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    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
  4. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    I have Amimari at 20.6% and I don't do 1-5, so that's from usage.

    Kuscah has Heal All, Giga Heal, Healx1.5, and can slot Mega Heal if needed (i.e. doesn't really have anything better). Also, you can often get multiple pincers. Amimari's Tera Heal doesn't offer much over that.

    There are several battles where the units are on different sides of the enemy, and it's hard to get your healer into position. There are also times where many units are hurt at once. I agree with the common recommendation of, "If you only have an SS healer, you should have a secondary healer that can learn Heal All (Kana, R'zonand, Zeera, Rikken)". I've been in tough spots where I really wish I had a Heal All. Maybe I wouldn't have been in a tough spot if I were a better player, but I'm not a better player. If Kuscah lets me survive not being a better player, doesn't that make him an effective healer?

    (PS: In my opinion, the most underestimated character is Ba'gunar.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
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  5. Laura Lita

    Laura Lita Just a Moderator Staff Member

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    Instead of doing a comprehensive character guide, I like the idea of just having "optimal" skillset(s) for each character - This is probably a lot easier to do and manage. In this way, I don't think we have to worry much about ranking
     
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  6. Tealius

    Tealius The Magic Mint Mod

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    The main issue here is that that 'optimal' skill set changes for each dungeon/whatever you need. A'merpact may deal the most ice damage in a double horizontal pincer, but he sacrifices his defenses in order to achieve that super high Ice DPS.
     
  7. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    Rather than "how to build" or "who to use when", I want to answer "who is good for the story, and who will be useful to train even if not for the story". Those questions CAN be answered.

    Answering "how to build" doesn't tell you who to use. Answering "who to use for what" doesn't (easily) answer, "Should I train this character?"

    The optimal skillsets suggestion answers, "How to use this character". The character overall rankings and ratings are bad for my goal, because a new player would think to only use and train the "best" characters (the answer isn't ranking, but threshold of usefulness). The per-event scores, I think, may be too much information per character (I imagine the ideal answer to be Yes/No/YesIfX). Listing events and the characters that are good for them is good, but it's presenting the info optimally for people who are preparing for that event, while a per-character listing is optimal for players trying to decide who to train/ignore.

    I don't like to keep information to members, and it isn't easier if people keep having to give the same answers.
     
  8. Laura Lita

    Laura Lita Just a Moderator Staff Member

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    It's not like I said there was only one specific skill set. I did put parentheses around the 's' because I knew there'd be a number of different sets. More importantly, most characters don't even have that many good sets which is the main reason I think it's a better idea in the first place.
     
  9. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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  10. Qwen

    Qwen Active Member

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    Maybe i'm wrong but : if there are same answers, it's because there are same questions. And these questions are here because, some people don't want to found by themselves.
    There is a lot of guide that's explain all the mechanics (very well, btw). For database, there is Wiki + terrabattleX (now is obsolete, right) Even here, there is a "db" like, through the guides. I'm pretty sure that a lot of people find their answer just by searching here. Others want just an easy way, by just asking (and it's not a shame, it's why forums are made for).

    This "guide" is just an another guide which sum up "better" ?
    Honestly, it's a good idea. But at a certain moment, the "old" gamer (not the casual who try to pass the ch20) know by himself where he has to go.
    But, again, maybe i'm wrong :/

    Even though, It's always better when all the datas are clear (possibility, optimization).
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
  11. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    Information is tree-like. You start at the top, and go deeper as you need to.

    I want something near the top of the tree. Analyzing relative stats is hard. Having lots of info (some outdated) is intimidating and confusing. And there will always be more "casuals".
     
  12. HunterScarX

    HunterScarX Member

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    No one is "keeping" information. There are many posts about which characters are better for what situation. Also, the reason this community thrives is because of chat box. Posting a list of which characters are good at what doesn't do anything except keep people from participating in discussion. Also your character rankings don't make sense unless you're trolling.
     
  13. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    Many, all over the place. "Should I train this character" is a very different question from "Which character should I train for this". Different columns to sort by.
    By "keeping information to members", I mean that requiring the reader to ask, well, requires them to be a member.

    Anyway, if you provide a useful resource, it draws more people, which drives up membership.
    It does a lot for the confused new player.
    What do you find senseless?
     
  14. Tealius

    Tealius The Magic Mint Mod

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    We already have a surplus of guide, and especially with PoF, SB, and Reroll guides, the average new player is already overwhelmed with guides that they might not necessarily understand. I think that having a 'confused new player' ask questions is important, because we educate them with our knowledge of what they want to know as opposed to throw the whole textbook at them, which is kind of what this guide is doing. This guide doesn't clarify what team they should have because it really does depend on who they have and don't have. And even then, if they have a lot of 'train' units, it might overwhelm them because they may feel behind. I think posting individualized questions about squad building is best because only then can we cater to their specific needs and questions. To eliminate that eliminates the player to player interaction that shows how helpful of a community we are. Besides, it's fun seeing what others think is a good squad, and it's nice to help out new players on a personal level instead of throwing them a guide.
     
  15. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this, which is why I reject these alternatives as substitute:
    - "Comprehensive Dungeon Guide"
    - "a reccomended set of skills for each job"
    - overall ratings/rankings
    - letting "characters skills/stats speak for themselves"
    - existing guides on individual uses (e.g. eidolons, farming)
    - "optimized List for different scenarios"
    - "guide that's explain all the mechanics" and "databases"

    All of these, together, are a lot of information that the player might not necessarily understand. You don't NEED to know what eidolons exist, you just need to know who's good for sidequests.

    There should be a New Player Guide at the top of the tree. This is near the top of the tree, and should cater to new players. It should HELP, rather than HURT, understanding, by giving them a starting point to making early decisions.

    It would be the opposite of the intended purpose. The textbook doesn't answer the primary questions: "who to use", and "who to train".

    In fact, what I had before is about 30% of the way to what I imagine the guide to be like, mod formatting and, say, notes on Camellia. It needs some explanations (e.g. what the terms mean; how to use it to build a team; how you don't reaaally need more than one or two of X; why you would care about eidolons), and links for More Info. It also needs a New Player Guide to explain the basics (elements, healing, job up, SS/S experience curve and why you might use A/B if you want to get through quickly).
    For party-building? I think a lot of it is the same answers over and over.

    Here's what I would say for party-building.
    1. Pick your primary healer. Prefer Sorman/Kuscah (B), then Amina/Amimari/A'misandra (SS), then Healer (C).
    2. If your primary healer is not Sorman/Kuscah, try to have a secondary healer with Heal All. Prefer Rikken (SS), otherwise Kana (A), R'zonand (S), or Zeera (S).
    3. If you have a unit that can learn Levitate, train one. Gegonago (S), Ellvern (S), Zafitte (S), Gatz (S), and Eileen (A) can learn Levitate.
    4. For the rest, choose some damaging units (or more support, if you'd like). Try not to use more than one of a single weapon (Sword/Spear/Bow) or element (Fire/Ice/Lightning/Darkness) (see [weaknesses](link)). Prefer units that are marked as Top/Use (Weapon/Element), but feel free to take any Train (Element/Weapon) or Optional (Element/Weapon). Do not go solely on rarity, as it's misleading.
     
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  16. HunterScarX

    HunterScarX Member

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    Many of them but I'll focus on the most senseless, gegonago. While he is useful in a lot of situations to a new player his only usefulness is levitation. Most people are not "hardcore" and don't care about frequency boost or control time. They want to put together a team that can kills enemies and survive.
     
  17. Tealius

    Tealius The Magic Mint Mod

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    Like I said, all you're doing if you do that is throwing the textbook at them. You don't need a guide for everything, and I don't think creating a guide eliminating the need to ask about squad formation is necessary. It's best to approach it on a case by case basis anyways, imo.
     
  18. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    Gegonago should be listed as Use (Levitation)/Train (CT+3 All; Disarm Bomb), which means, with the appropriate legend, that he should be used if you don't have Levitation, and he should be trained for later use even if you're not going to use him. You're saying, "His only use is Levitation," when I'm only trying to say, "Use him for Levitation."

    (And this is part of the problem with waiting for someone to ask: they don't necessarily know that there's something they don't understand.)
    1. You will need to elaborate on the "textbook". I'm trying to give the least amount of information to grant the most decision-making power. (Earlier, you said to let the character skills/stats speak for themselves, which has a much higher information burden.)
    2. On the flip side, it's not necessary to have them ask if there is a guide.
    3. Why case-by-case? Can you show me a case where an individual analysis would be significantly better than what a guide would tell them to build?
     
  19. Tealius

    Tealius The Magic Mint Mod

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    1) When I say 'throwing them the textbook,' I mean not teaching. Studies have shown that lectures often help students learn as opposed to just reading the textbook. The TB Wiki is already a textbook of sorts. You're trying to create a guide of 'what you should do with each character,' and essentially saying that this will eliminate the need to ask squad questions. 99% of the time, no new player has the time to read through a giant guide saying which characters to use and which to train, because it will be overwhelming if you don't give them specialized attention.

    2) I think a guide that intends to eliminate the need to ask squad questions is very very bad, because you're throwing them a resource that they might have trouble understanding. Why exactly is x better then y? What if I have a bunch of mediocre characters? These questions cannot be answered in your proposed classification, and trying o do so makes the guide more lengthy and thus, more intimidating. Not only that, their specific questions may not be answered.

    3) In a case by case analysis, you give each person a specific answer, based on information given. It's kind of like a lecture: smaller classrooms tend to do better than large lectures because there are more chances for individual attention to individual needs. For example, let's say they have a good healer, a Mage, and are deciding between Kem, Korin, Djugan, Pahrl, Manmer, Ka'pori... All of those are support weapons, and pretty much are equal. However, you can go into detail as to why X group dynamic is better than Y. If you create your character guide, you ignore the interaction of characters. And not to mention some people have differing opinions. You're trying to find the 'magic formula' of team building, much like the 'magic formula' of any team activity. There are too many variables to account for to make it feasibly a 'new player guide.' Not only that, but there are plenty of different ways to complete the main story, and this guide basically is trying to convert all of the play styles into one resource which makes it confusing if you simplify it. Even if you say 'have one of x, y, z, and q,' what if they have both Djugan and Kem competing for a spot? Personally I like Kem better, but Djugan may also be more useful because of Disarm bomb, and his evasion is also pretty high. But someone might say Djugan is better, and then the player themselves can make a choice.

    Note: Guides to specific dungeons are very detailed, and often cover a lot of material, and that's only for one to five floors most of the time. Guides work there because the end goal is the same for everyone, and there are only a few paths that are able to get there. The main story, however, can be done a multitude of ways. These include balanced teams, Mage heavy teams, and weapon heavy/specific teams. Even a farmable team is doable. It's also best to just ask the player what their end goals are, and then answer it based on your opinion. There are just so many outcomes that it makes it too subjective.
     
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  20. Raijinili

    Raijinili Well-Known Member

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    What you're criticizing and what I'm imagining are very different.
     

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