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Discussion in 'Rants & Accomplishments' started by Soupman, May 18, 2016.
And now they drag Lucia back for the third time...
Many of you speak true and precise about why people love TB and how they play it. With a long enough hiatus and recently restored passion that saw me complete POF (but not enough for SB yet), I can see it from both sides. Actually it can be really simple. Sometimes a grand scheme can be overwhelming to the point of being off-putting, especially for those feeling excluded. Instead of introducing the new elements incrementally (my ideal order would be new chars with new elemental skills ranging from A to SS that are easier to pull, new chapters providing context for the new content, new Z chars and ultimately challenging dungeons), they dropped these huge bombs of Z chars and supreme dragons all at once. It's becoming elitist. Having failed to pull any new chars, my passion was only saved by finding myself capable of beating PDK, of course with Palpa Z. And I'm planning to take on RDK once my regecell is fully leveld. But if I fail, I'm not sure if that will change my relation with the game...
While I totally feel for the OP, I do hope he/she will be back once more new content come out, such as story chapters.
This is the truth here. New elements and mechanics are fine, but they're almost exclusive to the new characters who are all Zs (even Palpa^ and Gatz^ if you have him). Even on this forum I've read about several people who dropped hundreds of Energy and never got a single new character. The difficulty of the new dragons is dependent almost entirely on those new characters (aside from using Tonberrys which probably wasn't something MW was expecting) so if you didn't get a new Z then you're essentially 'locked out' of the new content.
With the old descends you did need certain characters but much of it was open for variation. For Odin you needed Bow characters. Sn'aip was great, but not required (I didn't have Sn'aip when I took on Odin). Levi you needed 1 ice user, but it didn't HAVE to be Piz'fer... you could use A'merpact or even Una'sag instead. The Last Story and Mobius FF events were all very open to party variations and didn't stop the 50s drag limit or final Dahaka from being any less challenging. Yeah certain combinations of characters made it easier... having Lewto for Levi would be easier than having Daiana, but it was still doable with Daiana and I managed that 50s drag requirement with no SS mage (I remember 3 of my characters were Sheena, Ma'curi and Grace).
Now the events are extremely dependent on 11 new characters who are all Zs and if you didn't pull any, but Palpa you can't take part in the new content (I know you can beat PDK with just Palpa, but that's beyond being hard). It's easy to see why someone would be put off of the game after 4.0. MW should have incorporated the new elements into some existing characters or made some lower rank characters to go along with the Zs.
As someone who is currently trying to beat PDK with only Palpa, it feels almost impossible. As far as I can tell, what you need is to be able to get PDK as close to 480,000 HP as possible not on a turn right before Life Drain (or does PDK not do Life Drain directly after you take it past the 40% HP checkpoint? No idea, clearly.) so that you can have Damage x 1.5 stacked at least once or twice on Bahl/Ma'curi/S'naip, and then you need to activate all 3 of Palpa's augments + two perfect pincers (the second pincer needs to be Ma'curi and S'naip). I haven't been able to get the stacks before the 2 perfect pincers without sending the dragon into Thrash (the Ballista is too much of a pain to the team to keep it alive to use as an extra pincer). I'm not giving up because just looking at the dragon's life bar, I can tell I've almost gotten him there a few times in a row now, but there's literally no room for error with this method, which really sucks (not to mention the very real possibility that my team will die to the mobs after 40%, since I'm really light on healing).
There was a long time where I felt like I would never get any of the "best" characters in the game, but those came slowly, so I'm hoping patience here will land me at least a new character or two in the next few months. I already spent $40+ at the last event (like you mentioned), and I'm definitely not doing that again, so patience + Pull 10 events are my only hope.
My basic point is that it totally makes sense that people are getting overwhelmed by the new content. Look at my lineup; if you'd have told me beforehand that my only hope to beat any of these dragons would be recoding Palpa, I'd have laughed you off this forum. I have plenty of amusement leveling/recoding characters, but for those who don't enjoy that grind, this definitely feels like an incredibly high wall to get over. Reminds me a little of the Emerald and Ruby weapons from FFVII, if I can make a dated comparison!
Who are you running PDK with? I'm not naturally good at pincering, I get all anxious and freak out, but I've gotten into a good rhythm with Gatz Z and Palpa Z so I beat it just fine now. I'm curious to try it with the team you're running.
I'm also wondering about your hard time with PDK. Since I have only Palpa Z, I hope I can offer a closer reference for your fight. I got Macuri, Suoh, Snaip, Gugba as main DPS dealers and BonnaZ as mover. Since Bonna is fully leveld, damage from her area attacks also contribute a lot I think. I will first kill all three minions and then give a boss a casual single pincer or so to make sure its HP is at 510k to 530k. Then I wait for a turn before White Virus to start a PP double pincers and double pincer again in the WV turn (this way I don't have to move much or avoid any ) with Palpa's augments to make full use of their already buffed stats, and that always succeeds to skip Thrash. Of course, doing all this in a turn before white virus is optimal since then the boss won't move far and your next pincer will require less maneuver because you don't have to avoid any places. Otherwise, it's make or reload. Then the minion phase is easy since good position will lead to multiple kills by Snaip and Gugba's area 1 attacks, and thus healing won't be not that crucial. Like Onark, I don't think I'm particularly good at moving, but it's become much easier as it goes. Is it your main DPS dealers are simply not good enough or otomos or...?
I don't understand why people see those new dragons and characters as an issue.
Recently I read many times that TB doesn't have any good end-game content. It was true until 4.0, where MW finally gave us some end-game content, but people are complaining anyway. Changes made in 4.0 are justified if you look at them from another point of view. Making Gravity and Photon A or even B characters would upset the most dedicated veterans who SB grind and don't want any new useless characters (when you get enough Zs, you don't really need most of SS and lower). And frankly speaking, we didn't really need those new elements, because other than different magic type and animation there isn't much of a difference between, say, Andelucia and Koko Z, so MW gave us Dragon battles to justify existence of those two new elements. They also gave us the ability to recode Palpa and even Gatz to get hop buffs, which are really good. Really, I don't see a problem here. If all of Dragon battles were easy and beatable in a day for most of the players, MW would have to create something else like this in another update to keep veteran audience. Now MW gave us a goal which isn't easy to achieve, so while we are doing it they would have time to think of something else.
I'm in a similar situation. Trade Gugba for Zodin (Gugba wasn't doing enough dmg for me, not sure why), and trade Bonnaz(whom I don't have) for Zam as mover. I too casually pincer until 530k. A proper double pincer gets PDK down to 480k, at which point yes, another double with hop and you're golden. I also make sure not to stack any buffs prior to the first of the 2 critical pincers nor use a PP for it because it pushes PDK to thrash.
One way to "assist" making perfect doubles is to have Mac/Snaip on the right wall, spaced apart of course. and Zodin/Suoh on the left wall. Palpaz and Zam hang around. Much easier to avoid danger, while enabling easy double pincer setup. I could be patient, occasionally pincer, and when conditions are right (which sometimes doesn't happen for several rounds of life drain), I ONLY have to do 2 perfect double pincers. Rest is cleanup and risk assessment with the double balls.
In my opinion, I've had much more success with this (and with only Palpaz) because it's more forgiving of not doing double pincers 8x in a row. With tonberry, I never beat it reliably simply because I couldn't guarantee perfect doubles every turn throughout thrash.
It does not matter for sb'ers and sb'ers are not necessarily veteran players. The creation of new A's and B's does not necessarily matter. The only thing that matters is how many phases the new character has. I think when you sb, you become a collector as well after a certain point, and each dupe annoys you. If there was a new character within the pool of A's and B's I am guaranteed of drawing him. It is no longer an rng game for me as skill booster. => I get sooner to a possible optimal team. Ofcourse if I draw the Z, I will use him. But in all honesty there is a 1 in 12 chance before boosted rates that skew everything.
And unlike for example mmorpgs where you can farm for items to unlock the new gear, here ou have almost no way to force the drop of a specific character. Even if you had everything sbed, you would only have a random chance of drawing one of these 12 new characters.
The issue I have with these dragons is simple. I dislike them being locked behind new characters and rely on "twitch" mechanics. It is plain and simple no longer an exercise of mind, but of reaction, reflexes and a damage check. If I was looking for it, I would play league or some fps. Introducing new elements seems like playing the new Pokemon games with new types. There was a simple way of making both crowds happy by for example allowing one of the old elements still do enough damage to remain slightly tedious. For example 90% from photon and 70-80% from lightning. I think this is an artificial difficulty, you know akin to hp sponges to ramp up difficulty. I am not sure that this is a good way of making the end game content.
But I am also the guy that thinks recodes are annoying as Hell.
See, where I disagree is the notion that sb-ing is a matter of mind. It simply isn't. It's a matter of mindlessness,if anything. I also don't think that you becom a collector if you sb, I think if you are already inclined to collect, you will also be inclind to sb. But sb-ing can have the side effect of turning the game into a variation of animal crossing where you do nothing but collect and... that's the game.
What I like about these upgrades is it actually makes the game more about mind. I dislike the fact that the obsessive repetitive mindless action of sb-ing gains a significant advantage in the game, and honestly, it still does, but it just requires significantly more such action.
But I think this kind of content actually increases the level of mindfulness in the game. No longer is it quite as easy to repeatedly play one of the early levels and do everything in the game with ease. Now you have to think about how you can use what you have and develop skills at playing the game. The content is not actually locked for the new characters. Palpa, Snaip, Macuri and Bahl is all it tales on PDK, and RDK can be done with a series of mages, axion companions, and regenercell (I know because I've done it).
Other than boredom, one of he other reasons I decided not to sb myself is because, for the time I have to play the game, I worried that I would miss out on time sensitive content because I didn't have tge characters leveled, or even rostered, to beat it while sb-ing before drawing. At least this content appears permanent, so sb-ing is actually a valid strategy as, in time, you will get characters that make the levels easier.
The one thing I'm somewhat amused by from all this is that PDK in particular (though RDK, too, since it's beatable if you can beqt PDK) exposed the significant number of people who had sb-ed Palpa. If I were to sb, Palpa would be one of the last characters I did, just before rainbow road, because she's awful to sb and I'd rather draw a dupe of her than have to sb her more than draw a dupe of Samantha or Pizfer or someone much easier to sb and more fun to play with. Despite that, it appears as though a lot of people sb Palpa early on because they're so worried about dupes of her that it wrecks their ability to enjoy the game.
As for this content, it's nothing compared to Levi when he first came out. I beat Levi with a level 70 cap with Amerpact as my only ice user and Diana as my only fire mage, and Suoh as my only SS, using Macuri and Zuzu for 1000 damage as the bulk of my damage with 1 energy for icicle. Then I realized the brilliance of Grace (at the time) but was glad to have tried it the hard way. Challenge is good,or else it really isn't a game and is more just collecting for bragging rights, which kills a lot of the fun of any game, at least to me.
No other game has an SB system that removes character from gacha pool, and yet people don't complain on those games and just gacha dupes non-stop.
Here we are in TB with a special SB system that can help make a f2p player clear out pool, and people complain.
I've been playing since October and I'm happy to have a set challenges ahead of me that tests my team and skills. Otherwise I'm just waiting to pull the right characters to kill mages in PvP.
I think people are not complaining in this thread about dupes. But even if they were, Terra Battle should be a game judged on its own merits. Skillboost is part of the game design and the "what if it didn't exist" scenario is not really relevant. Honestly I would wonder if even 0.1% had a completed PoT. So this feature is really not relevant to most people and anyways. MW doesn't make money of skillboosters and most people could argue that they do more harm than good to MW. skillboosters use their servers, play the game and don't pay for it.
I see where you are coming from and I am happy that there is such a feature and there are positive aspects of this game. Otherwise neither you nor I would play this game. But honestly positives and negatives don't cancel each other out. If MW gave everybody Lewto ^ For free tomorrow it wouldn't change the fact that the new dungeons are in my opinion bad, story is non existent for something being an endgame dungeon and a myriad of other issues I have with this game.
Fair enough about the collectors argument. I disagree however with the "mindlessness" argument. Increasing your chances and optimizing your rosters is rarely defined as mindlessness, it is pretty much a planned process and would be the opposite. It also allows to get the optimal team for each event as well. Maybe the process is really simple and easy and that is what made you misunderstand it?
Where is the mindfulness? You pretty much just said, use holy trinity plus best hop character you have. Compared to previous events, it is even more simplistic. Then have great reflexes. As I said puzzle games requiring diagonal movements, complex pincer build ups, is all good, optimizing pincers, learning best patterns develops skills. Preparing floors, evading enemies and positioning is good. Lamia was a very good dungeon, levi, baha and odin were cool. Even if you could get screwed by not having a capsule character.
This is just a damage check and a twitch mechanic. I really think it is a simple way to create an illusion of increased difficulty and lock out the older demographic.
I really think that MW took a new direction with these new dungeons. Adding traps that follow you and do damage or the kinetic traps instead of true multi layer fights against interesting bosses, yay! I enjoyed the Apirath fight , I enjoyed the Snaptrap fight. This one I do not.
You would finish Palpa before really starting the Rainbow road. Just because you would draw her. From strategic point of view it makes sense to sb her in order to avoid drawing her during the 10/2 event too and in order to improve your roster.
I have fond memories of Odin. No holy trinity, last dungeon took 3-5 hours. But I was lucky to be on vacation at that time, otherwise i would have let it be. But I think for every dungeon there should be a smart and a brute way to win. Grace method was the smart one. What I would call intelligent. But I would look at these dungeons from the perspective of new players.
These weren't intended for new players. Far from it.
...but Mistwalker's mistake was releasing this kind of content without anything else in-between for less skilled/determined players.
New story chapters would've been perfect, and appease the crowd a little. They're taking too long with it though.
I didn't mean it like that. I was thinking more along the lines that for new players this is daunting, I think however that this is not necessarily a very valid argument.
But I must concede that you are right. The new content is meant for veteran players and whales and whales. And yes I think it would have been better to release some chapter content.
Honestly, it's a combination of things. First off, I'm kind of a lazy player in general, so it's a real struggle for me to move everything into proper position with that damn kinetic collider in the way (because I'm used to just kind of moving things around willy-nilly). Secondly, a lot of my best DPS characters are low SB (Gugba, Jaguna^, even Samatha^ is only ~35%), so when I don't have a power point going, things are rough. The main issue I run into is having enough DPS at the right time, though. Inevitably I won't time it right, so I either go over 480k (and PDK goes into Thrash mode) before using Palpa's Augment, or I don't have enough stacks of 1.5x damage when I do try to take PDK below 40%.
I've stopped worrying about it for now, though, because as with everything else in the game, I'm sure I'll get some characters at some point that will make this all more doable for me, no need to stress over it now. Besides, even after beating PDK, I'd run into the same issue with RDK, so I might as well be patient.
What we really need is to hit...is it 2.6 million for "Endless battle" or whatever? These sorts of events are nice, but TB really needs a mode where you take your favorite units into a battle, and see what they can do. Story chapters are fine (and agreed, will definitely help whenever they're rolled out), but #1 typically require more specific units (i.e. specific support units, DPS characters, etc.) and #2 lose their sheen once you've beaten them once. An endless mode would give people a chance to play with the characters and companions they've worked hard on, without (hopefully) the same type of more rigid rules that standard battles give.
I hope you didn't use the Knights of the Round + W Summon + Mimic technique. That made Emerald weapon take over an hour to defeat!
Maaaaaaaaaaaaaybe I did!
I couldn't get enough of that summon, though, as a fan of the King Arthur legends. So awesome.
SUPER excited for that. This game has made me become team agnostic, which I appreciate, but I generally enjoy being able to take a team of favorites and test them out against new challenges.