Terra Battle 4.7.0

Discussion in 'General' started by Tharos, Apr 24, 2017.

  1. dmmby

    dmmby Member

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    No and no.

    First of all you needed the def down from Myne to do this. People tried with Sayu instead and were about 80k short.

    Second of all, S'naip gets 2 Triple Pincers in a row in that video. That no longer works.
     
  2. mudamuda

    mudamuda Active Member

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    There was actually a few physical teams that were viable. All required at least 2 Augment and 1 impair tapper which will always be Gatz/Shin'en/someone else. (for the Korin method Scarlet was suggested, but I'm not sure she ends up with more DPS than Shin'en since he does have chained physical skills, and you could put a grand peta on him whereas you Scarlet's impair comes from her otomo).

    The bare bones team was Gatz, Bahl, S'naip, Suoh, Shin'en, and a tapper with CT. 2 grand-peta and the rest peta/CE and 1 heal otomo. But the setup is very particular.

    Putting x 1.2 otomo on Suoh would not work since there's a good chance the cap applies to his version as well. On Gatz it sounds OK but I really doubt he can make up Bahl's difference.
     
  3. TrueShadow

    TrueShadow Well-Known Member

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    Isn't the cap +200% damage? Suoh with Minidra would be at +160% with constant double pincer, assuming he's at second pincer. With triple pincer he just hits the buff cap.

    Now theorycrafting time.

    Assuming constant double pincers, then triple pincer at burst turn, the cap makes you lose only 50% of Bahl's pre-buff damage. If SoV crits, that's x9.75 multiplier lost (Bahl uses grandpeta). Gatz with Minidra, assuming he's at bottom/left pincer will gain:
    1st pincer, Gatz lead vs Staff: 3 Minidra stacks x Cross Cleave (worst case; Berserker all misses Mutoh): 0.6 x 2 = 1.2
    1st pincer, Gatz lead vs Mutoh: 4 Minidra stacks x Gatz' all multiplier = 0.8 x 14 = 11.2
    2nd pincer' Gatz in chain vs Mutoh: 5 stacks x Gatz' chain multiplier = 1 x 8 = 8

    So, Bahl loses 9.75 of her multipliers due to nerf, but Gatz gets 20.4 multiplier due to Minidra. Also, Gatz has higher Atk than Bahl, so I think that more than compensates.
     
  4. mudamuda

    mudamuda Active Member

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    You lost me, I only recently figured out the maths for how x 1.5 works so I think I'll have to read all that again on pc to try and work it out.

    We don't know for sure until we can test it I guess, but if you equip Minidra you also lose the slot for a grand-peta, was that factored in?
     
  5. andr3174

    andr3174 Active Member

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    We do know actually cause we have the damage formulas in this case for physical damage:

    Attack Output: 1.1 * power(sum of all activated skill multipliers) * (((Unit ATK*1.15*(atk buff if any, 1 stack would be *1.1 2 *1.2 and so on)+flat atk stat from equiped otomo if any)^1.7)*physcial damage modifiers

    As it does not factor enemies defense the numbers will obiously be really big but gives an idea of the difference in damage between characters within different conditions.

    A this is the whole formula Attack Output: 1.1 * power * ((Unit ATK*1.15)^1.7) / (Enemy DEF^0.7)
     
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  6. yeezus

    yeezus Well-Known Member

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    You are correct that Myne (or Edg'low) is needed, due to Impair Defense, but the second part of your answer is incorrect. The mixed Mutoh team only requires back to back double pincers for it to work.

    I can confirm this technique works with Edg'low (don't have Myne).
     
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  7. KRIS

    KRIS Active Member

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    Did they release the image till the last minute now?
     
  8. TrueShadow

    TrueShadow Well-Known Member

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    Sorry it was gibberish. I suck at explaining things concisely.

    Like @andr3174 said, the damage formula for physical is:

    1.1 × power × ((ATK*1.15)^1.7) / (Enemy DEF^0.7)

    Since I'm not doing actual damage calculation, but only comparison of Bahl before and after nerf, I'm only comparing the power (because other variables are all the same).

    Power here is defined by sum of all skill multipliers, modified by her Physical damage buff. Physical damage buff adds +50% to damage each activation. So 2 stacks add +100% (double damage), 3 stacks add +150% (2.5x damage) and 4 stacks add +200% (triple damage).

    So, I compared Bahl's power during burst turn, made with the following assumptions:
    - Double pincer the turn before (so Bahl has 2 buff stacks activated already)
    - Triple pincer during burst turn (1 pincer vs staff, 2 pincers vs Mutoh)
    - No Atk+10% skill equipped (because two tappers)
    - Bahl leads the last pincer
    - Bahl has Phys buff, Tera, Giga and Megasword equipped. Otomo is Grand peta.
    - Sword of Valor crits.

    So, here's the power comparison before and after capping (only counting attacks done to Mutoh):

    1st Pincer (vs Staff): Bahl activates buff and Cross Cleave
    Before = 3 buff stack × 2 = 2.5 × 2 = 5
    After = 3 buff stack × 2 = 2.5 × 2 = 5

    2nd Pincer (vs Mutoh): Bahl activates buff, Cross Cleave, and Otomo
    Before = 4 stack × (2 + 3.5) = 3 × 5.5 = 16.5
    After = 4 stack × (2 + 3.5) = 3 × 5.5 = 16.5

    3rd Pincer (vs Mutoh): Bahl activates all her skills and Otomo. Sword of Valor crits.
    Before = 5 stack × (2 + 2 + 4 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 3.5) = 3.5 × 17.5 = 61.25
    After = 4 stack (cap) × (2 + 2 + 4 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 3.5) = 3 × 17.5 = 52.5

    As you can see, the only difference is in the last pincer, where the cap is reached. So instead of 82.75 total power, she has 74 power instead. She lost 8.75 power (my last post has a miscalculation).

    I hope this is clear and I didn't make any mistakes.
     
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  9. TrueShadow

    TrueShadow Well-Known Member

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    @mudamuda

    Now, calculating Gatz with Minidra vs Gatz with GrandPeta equipped. Unlike the trinity, Minidra only gives +20% damage each activation. So, 2 stacks give +40% damage, 5 stacks give +100% damage, and it needs 10 stacks to reach the +200% cap.

    Assumptions:
    - Double pincer the turn before (so Minidra has 2 stacks active)
    - Triple pincer at burst turn
    - Gatz has Gigasword, Megasword, Levitation, and whatever equipped.
    - Gatz leads the first and second pincer
    - Berserker all hits Staff during first pincer.
    - Staff dies after being attacked (so Berserker is guaranteed to all hit Mutoh afterwards)

    So, comparison (again, only counting attacks to Mutoh):

    1st Pincer (vs Staff): Gatz activates Cross Cleave
    GrandPeta = 2
    Minidra = 3 buff stack × 2 = 1.6 × 2 = 3.2

    2nd Pincer (vs Mutoh): Gatz activates all his skills
    Grand = 3 + 2 + 6 + 1 + 2 + 3.5 = 17.5
    Minidra = 4 stack × (3 + 2 + 6 +1 + 2) = 1.8 × 14 = 25.2

    3rd Pincer (vs Mutoh): Gatz activates Cross Cleave and Berserker.
    GrandPeta = 2 + 6 + 3.5 = 11.5
    After = 5 stack × (2 + 6) = 2 × 8 = 16

    So with GrandPeta, Gatz has 31 power. With Minidra, Gatz has 44.4 power. That's 13.4 increase in power, more than what Bahl lost.

    Consider that Gatz also has slightly higher Attack than Bahl. The conclusion is that equipping Minidra on Gatz more than compensates for Bahl's loss of damage due to the cap.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2017
  10. Léo

    Léo Member

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    @TrueShadow

    Nice Theorycrafting, I don't see anything wrong with the maths.
    But now I foresee people getting depressed knowing they theorically could still kill mutoh with a physical team if they had that ZCoTOnly otomo :/

    @Biotar
    I'm sorry I can't access videos from work but the cookie cutter Hybrid team is : Gatz^(heal otomo)/Swcheiz(HdZ)/Annu or Peyrna(HdZ)/Bahl^(Grand peta)/Snaip^(grand peta)/Myne (HdZ)
    Myne deals more damage than Sayu because of ImpairDEF.
    With this team, 2 consecutive double pincers is more than enough to kill mutoh. Note that it's also way easier than the physical team because you can use 2 physical taps when staves spawn.
     
  11. mudamuda

    mudamuda Active Member

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    Props man:goodjob:

    Although I think I see that your Bahl before and after does not take into account on the burst turn Bahl has to be next to Suoh who provides an additional 1.2 buff to her, and in the video the player does have the +10%atk skill equipped probably because even with Korin's +5% stacks it doesn't quite reach the 200% cap with 6 taps. Of course I'm assuming that Suoh's x 1.2 does in fact contribute to the cap as here and it's this ability that's important for the burst in both the Korin and other no HDZ strategy.

    And the thing is from my own personal experience the Korin strategy is very hard to pull off even without the cap. Though I did everything according to the video and more by using more grand-peta, using HDZ on Shin'en+Peyrna and starting as close to the twister threshhold as possible(guy in vid didn't even have to do this) I still always came short until I got some miraculous RNG that allowed me to do a perfect triple pincer(I think Gatz' chain attacks hitting 3 times was the difference maker). No one else seems to have succeeded with the Korin strategy and posted about it or perhaps they could provide some input on it as well because I didn't attempt anymore after dropping Mutoh once(no room to put a kiss bottle on).
     
  12. Léo

    Léo Member

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    Some of us (not me, I have the hybrid team so I didn't bother much) managed to pull that off. There's a thread in the french Forum :
    http://terrabattleforum.com/threads/mutoh-hm-team-pur-physique-100l.12541/page-2#post-156210

    We're still not really sure why it sometimes works and it sometimes doesn't. My personnal theory is that you need to do horizontal pincers on mutoh in order to take advantage of korin's sword synergy. Those 3 slashes can be a game changer with Bahl^
     
  13. Tharos

    Tharos The Source Explorer

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    Picture were just sent to the server.
    I'm getting them and updating the thread in a few moments
     
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  14. mudamuda

    mudamuda Active Member

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    I always attempted with lateral pincers precisely because you miss an attack from Bahl otherwise. And Korin's Sword Synergy is not actually that great, even if activated 3 times since it's only 3 megaslashes with Korin's stats. But yes, even with lateral pincer Bahl and Korin activating all buffs and attacks AND more advantages than the original I always came short, which was very strange. A simpler method I tested was even easier to pull off lol

    from 64-bit on thw wiki.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
  15. Léo

    Léo Member

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    The sword synergy skill is sure wonky.

    I knew It was hitting the boss only once (that's why I talked about 3 slashes). But are you sure the damage is calculated with korin's stats ?
    After rereading myself, it sure seems to be the most logical behaviour anyway ...

    Don't know why but in my mind, the damage from sword synergy was issued from the most important source of damage, coming from any character actually hitting the boss with sword synergy.

    Also I totally agree with you, gatz's zerker is really important. If the staff dies from the first pincer, you get a lot more damage on the boss
     
  16. TrueShadow

    TrueShadow Well-Known Member

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    @mudamuda

    I knew I was missing something! I didn't take into account Korin and Suoh's buffs. I may or may not do another calculation later. That stuff takes an hour.
     
  17. mudamuda

    mudamuda Active Member

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    I have no proof except I think this video testing the skill shows it

    in the vid only Korin has sword skills Terasword and Sword Synergy and those are the only 2 sword hits even though all 4 sword units in the double pincer are triggering the synergy. If there was an enemy beside Alika^ then I think it would be hit with the same synergy damage the boss received.

    Basically a very weak skill for killing mobs I think.

    Don't sweat it, I mean the otomo isn't quite released and widely distributed yet lol But good spirit of persisting in using unconventional strategies heh.
     
  18. Tharos

    Tharos The Source Explorer

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    updated the OP with recent pictures
    only things missing are the new 8-bit Rush banner/otomos
     
  19. Moronica

    Moronica Member

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    I don't think 1.2x buddies work because you need 3+3 pincers with Bahl in the Korin setup to kill Mutoh, i.e. +300%. You also need Suoh adjacent for the extra 1.2x he provides.
     
  20. TrueShadow

    TrueShadow Well-Known Member

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    Man, Velraine without her eyebags look weird.
     

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